The long good-bye: 10 questions for Don Winslow on his final novel, ‘City in Ruins’
Published 12:00 am Tuesday, April 2, 2024
Prolific author Don Winslow has been thrilling readers since his first published novel, the inaugural offering of his Neal Carey series, “A Cool Breeze on the Underground,” in 1991. More than three decades and dozens of books later, he offers us his last.
But what a way to go out.
“City in Ruins” completes Winslow’s triumvirate magnum opus, a novel that along with ‘“City on Fire” (2022) and “City of Dreams” (2023) ends the feuding Moretti-Murphy crime family, Danny Ryan saga. The trilogy sprang from Winslow’s reading of the classics a generation ago, and the story based on Virgil’s “The Aeneid” took 30 years and more than 1,100 pages to complete. Now that it’s done, Winslow says it’s time to liberate his working hours for other passions, and particularly political activism.
The announcement in spring 2022 that “City in Ruins” would be his last novel — though not last literary endeavor with myriad books in movie or series production, and much of his back catalogue revived with new publications — came as a surprise to just about everyone except Winslow, himself. For the author, it was a carefully orchestrated next step in a life of careers that has included leading photographic safaris in Kenya, directing Shakespeare productions, managing a theater in New York City, private investigation work in Times Square and finally, with the film and publishing deal for his novel, “The Death and Life of Bobby Z” (1997), a secure future living and writing in California.
That writing, in the past 33 years, has earned Winslow vast accolades, awards, production deals and praise from colleagues — the “who’s” in “the who’s who” of classic and contemporary crime and thriller fiction writing — most of whom he thanks and pays homage to in the acknowledgements in this final book.
Gracious to a fault, Winslow agreed a week before the novel’s April 2 publication date to take a few phone questions during the 7 a.m. hour from his home in California. We spoke about the new novel, his career and what’s next for the man who once claimed writing to be an “addiction.” The following interview has been edited for clarity and length.
1. Tom Mayer: Don, good morning, there’s a lot to unpack with the Danny Ryan trilogy, and especially in “City in Ruins.” Morality, judgment, guilt, the classics are heavy subjects for 7:15 a.m. Thank you for taking the time this morning. To begin, you completed the trilogy during the pandemic, didn’t you?
Don Winslow: That’s correct.
Although you were working on the story long before the pandemic began, did the lockdowns or other societal quirks influence the writing? I’m thinking of Danny, who is such a flawed hero. He’s faced at times with tremendous temptations and choices, but it seems it’s always in his nature to do what he believes to be the best, right thing. Like, when presented with two evils, he always tries to pick the lesser, even to his own detriment. Many of us hope it would be that way for our society, but Covid didn’t always bear that out. Is this sense of altruism something characteristic of Danny’s nature, or is it a trait of human nature — something you, as an author, wishes was?
Interesting question. I’d like to think it’s built into the human condition for most of us. You know, I think that the the majority of people, by far, want to do the right thing (but) don’t always know what the right thing is. … But I think that there is a basic human moral instinct toward doing the right thing. And most people, with the obvious exceptions, sociopaths, psychopaths …
… Who seem to people these novels in spades.
Well, I mean, they’re there for real you know, and particularly in the criminal world. Those (types) are real people that exist out there.
2. And Danny exists in their world, but what makes him different is summed up in a line from the book that’s really stayed with me. At one point, about three-fourths through the novel, he says something along the lines that “everybody pays for my sins but me.” It seems like there’s a reach at redemption he can’t quite get at, but it’s also a skewed thought.
I think it is skewed. And I think that that it’s a misperception on his part, because he definitely does pay for his sins. But he has this feeling of what you’d call Catholic guilt, you know, that he’s not, if you will, adequately punished for his sins. And, he does feel guilty that other people are paying the price.
3. That line from Danny comes at a very dramatic part of the novel involving an extremely well-drawn character. Joshua is young, bright and has a very close, even enviable familial relationship with his grandfather. Is his character, or that relationship, based on any personal experiences?
No, I made all of that up. The characters are based on characters in “The Aeneid.” When Aeneas goes out of Rome to seek allies and meets a king — whose name is escaping me at this early hour in the morning — who sends his grandson to fight along with Aeneas, (there) is the promise that Aeneas will take care of him — and the grandson is killed. So that’s tracking part of “The Aeneid.” Every character in the trilogy has an analogous character to the classics. But the specific relationship between Josh and Abe, that’s something I created.
4. It seems you’ve also created other literary connections, unless I’m over-reading. There’s one character, a gangster, who talks about his dreams that seems to track with, I think, a poem by Edgar Allen Poe, “A Dream Within a Dream.” The gangster’s spiel about his dreams is almost eloquent, poetic — though I don’t think Poe would have tacked the descriptor “f- – king weird” at the end of the verse. So, what’s the verdict, true connection or am I over-reaching.
(Laughing) I’m afraid I had no reference to that, sorry.
All right, I know I was looking for classic references … but I still think if you reread it was there in the back of your brain. …
Oh, I won’t deny that, but it certainly wasn’t conscious. But that brings up an interesting point, you know, that I would never tell the reader, or correct the reader, on their perception of any of my writing. Reading is such an individual experience. And if that’s the reader’s perception, that the reader’s perception … and it’s valid.
5. Something that is also valid, though I wish it weren’t so, is that you’ve been talking about your retirement from writing, after more than two dozen novels, since about April 2022. I don’t want to re-tread over that ground, but I do recall that in one PBS interview you said you had wanted to be a writer “since I was a kid.” And you’ve called writing “an addiction.” You’ve also said you’re retiring so that you could concentrate on the political activism that’s resulted from an “existential crisis in America.” I have admiration for you taking all of these steps, but many writers seem fine with just combining activism and writing in very obvious ways. I guess that’s my pitch: Why can’t you keep writing, in that direction, these wonderful novels that millions of us have come to look forward to?
It’s very simple. It’s a matter of time. I would write a novel on these issues and it would take me two to three years to write a decent book. Then there’s another year in the publication process, at least, right? By that time, this fight is over. So, what’s happening (in society today) requires a more, if you will, rapid response, than is available in the novel form. (Carl von) Clausewitz famously said you should fight a battle on the ground of your own choosing. Well, that’s great if you get to choose the ground, but we don’t always get to, and so you have to fight the battle where the battle is these days — and that’s largely social media.
6. On which you are very proliferative and successful. My understanding is that you’ve taken a lot of heat for your views, and that’s you’ve even been personally threatened. True?
Yes, that’s true.
So, is giving up writing to take on these fights an even more personal sacrifice?
That might be overstated. There’s a confluence of things happening with me right now and this sort of all comes together. You know, when I was finishing up this book, “City in Ruins,” I made the decision I was going to retire. And that was based on the completion of the trilogy, which took me close to 30 years, and also what was happening in the country. So, it’s a combination and certainly there’s an element of sacrifice, but I don’t want to come across as some sort of martyr.
7. That’s fair. And, of course, you and your works aren’t disappearing. A lot of your novels are still in production in terms of movies and series and things like that, right?
That’s very true. This trilogy is at Sony, moving ahead as film, well, three films actually with Austin Butler as Danny, which I’m very excited about. An older book of mine, “The Winter of Frankie Machine,” is being done by Chris Storer, who created “The Bear,” that wonderful television series. There are my surfing books which are currently in development. So, there’s a lot of stuff going on.
There certainly is. How involved are you in those productions?
To a certain extent, you know … they’ll send me scripts that I’ll read and give them notes. I usually have conversations with the director and sometimes with the major actors. I’ve talked with Austin, for instance. Sometimes they’ll ask me to go take them out on locations, which I’m always quite keen to do. You know, in the case of Danny, you know, to the beaches in Rhode Island where the thing starts and so, to that extent, I’m involved. Beyond that, I’m not going to be like hanging around on the set and that kind of stuff.
8. You mentioned the surfer novels and others, and as you know Blackstone Publishing has done a great job recently republishing your earlier books.
I think so, too.
Some writers, such as another of my favorites, the Alabama writer Robert R. McCammon, haven’t always been so willing to let that early stuff get a new life. What are your thoughts on that?
You always have a certain fondness for your first book, as I do with a book called, “A Cool Breeze on the Underground.” I did five books with (the private eye character) Neal Carey, and then I moved on to something different. Hopefully you evolve as a writer, you know, but I’m happy to bring back out those books. Absolutely.
9. Speaking of evolving as a writer, the acknowledgments of “City in Ruins” where you thank your mentors, colleagues and friends is a virtual cornucopia of who’s who of crime and thriller fiction writers. If you had to, what one author out of that mix would you suggest someone new to the genre begin with?
That’s a tough question. And I’m always leery of that because I don’t want to leave people out. I think if you’re initially coming into the genre, I would say, certainly, Raymond Chandler. I would also say certainly Elmore Leonard, the irreplaceable Elmore Leonard. Lawrence Block, right? The two MacDonalds, John D. and Ross (Macdonald). …
Well, not to belabor the issue … but somebody not retiring is Lawrence Block. He’s in his mid-80s and still writing novels. Not too long ago he published a book that millions of us have been waiting for, “The Autobiography of Matthew Scudder” (2023), based on his private investigator character he first wrote about in the late 1970s. …
Block’s a great writer and was a huge influence on me. When I when I first started to think I might go into this genre, Lawrence Block was one of the people that I was reading, particularly the Matt Scudder series because, at the time, I was a PI on Times Square in Hell’s Kitchen.
10. Just like Scudder. … And just like Block, you’ve had a successful career and about to embark on your final book tour. Is that something you’re going to miss?
I leave on Saturday (March 30) and it’s New York and Boston and New Hampshire and Rhode Island, which you know, makes sense because a lot of (what are in) the books are set there. Where else? … St. Louis, Phoenix, Los Angeles, San Diego, Orange County, couple of places in Florida, Charleston, South Carolina, Traverse City, Mich., so a lot of places and then over to Europe.
I will miss the readers and I’ll miss the bookstore people. I mean over the years, and it’s been quite a few years now, you develop friendships and relationships with those owners, with readers and it’s — it’s great to go out and thank the readers, you know, and make some kind of personal contact. I’ll miss that. I will not miss the airports.